Building Trust with Your Audience: How Content Creates Connections with Jeremy Enns #233

Jeremy Enns was unsure if anyone was actually reading his newsletters and if it was making any impact. After subscribing to 100 newsletters and producing 500 podcast episodes, he realized that if he wanted to build trust with his audience, he needed to commit to creating consistent content. With multiple years of creating content, Jeremy was able to build trust and saw success in his content ecosystem. Through his hard work, he has proven that consistency and commitment to creating good content are key to building trust with an audience.

Here’s what Jeremy Enns and I cover:

  1. Good nurture content allows us a window into the hearts and minds of the creator.
  2. What to expect from a long content strategy–and what not to expect.
  3. The role of consistency and when you really, truly can own your expertise. 

Jeremy Enns is the creator of Podcast Marketing Academy, where he teaches brands and creators to hit their next growth milestones with detailed step by step marketing playbooks. He also writes the Scrappy Podcasting newsletter, sharing short actionable ideas around how underdog shows can punch above their weight.

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Highlights in this episode:

  • [00:02:58] The Holy Grail for newsletter writers–and all content creators
  • [00:06:16] Podcasting builds up that relational aspect that you cannot get from a social media post. 
  • [00:08:57] A podcast (or any long-form content) feels like a more generous offering than an ad-driven lead magnet.
  • [00:15:35] Jeremy’s launch vs nurture content life cycle
  • [00:19:59] Consistency matters a lot more than frequency.
  • [00:20:56] When you have a proven track record, people see that.
  • [00:24:46] How to cover the breadth and full body of work you can offer: the inflection point.
  • [00:27:26] How to lower the pressure that we all feel like we need to have it figured out now.
  • [00:30:13] Being in this for the long haul. How you put it all together really becomes who you are, and that’s a pretty dang cool legacy.

Quotables:

Unlock the Secret to Boosting Your Audience’s Trust

Do you ever feel like no matter how hard you work, you just can’t seem to build trust with your audience online? It’s a common frustration that many course creators and content marketers share. But thankfully, there is a way to authentically automate your marketing and establish a meaningful connection with your audience. Jeremy Enns, the creator of Podcast Marketing Academy, has the answer. In this article, Jeremy will share his expertise in building trust with your audience by utilizing long-format content and creating a content ecosystem that nurtures relationships with your audience. Through his experiences, Jeremy will explain how to move beyond the regurgitating consumed content phase and into the real thought leadership stage. Get ready to create a long-lasting connection with your audience and learn more about Jeremy’s strategies for building trust.

Jeremy Enns is a content marketer, course creator, and newsletter writer who focuses on sustainable, measurable content creation. He’s the creator of Podcast Marketing Academy and writes the Scrappy Podcasting newsletter, where he shares actionable ideas for underdog shows. Jeremy believes podcasts allow for an authentic window into hosts’ minds, hearts, and souls and that long-format content allows audiences to connect with them and build trust. He’s passionate about helping brands and creators hit their next growth milestones, and he encourages creatives to reset their expectations and commit to a long-term content strategy.

Here Are The Steps You Need To Follow To Build Trust And Create Connection With Long-Form Content:

1. Reset expectations: Don’t try to put a square peg into a round hole and force it to do something it’s not going to do.

2. Market the podcast: Market the podcast as much as you would market your business.

3. Build trust and authority: Build trust and authority over time by creating content that is consistently resonating with your intended audience.

And while we’re using a podcast as the specific example here, since that’s Jeremy’s sweet spot, know that any kind of long-form content needs the same three steps to build a foundation of trust with your audience!

1. Reset Expectations: Don’t try to put a square peg into a round hole and force it to do something it’s not going to do.

Step 1 of this process is to reset expectations. It is important to recognize that a podcast (or any long-format content) is not a silver bullet for marketing success, and it’s not going to do all of the work for you. It is a powerful tool to build trust with your audience over time, but it should not be the only source of marketing for your business. It should be used in combination with other marketing strategies, such as social media, email campaigns, and other forms of content creation.

Understanding that a successful podcast requires a commitment to long-term content creation is important. Without a consistent publishing schedule, your audience will not have the opportunity to get to know you over time and will not be able to build trust in you as a business.

Being realistic about what you can achieve with your podcast is also important. It may not be able to generate the same exposure or leads as a direct-response campaign or social media post.

Key takeaway: A podcast is a tool to nurture your existing audience, not a tool to generate massive amounts of new leads.

2. Market Your Content: Market the podcast as much as you would market your business.

Marketing the podcast should be done in the same way as you would market your business.

  • Start by creating a website for your podcast and use various strategies to drive traffic to it.
  • Utilize social media and other digital marketing strategies, such as creating ads and using SEO tactics, to promote the podcast.
  • Create content around the podcast, such as blog articles, videos, and other pieces, to generate interest in the podcast. For more on this, look at the Complete Guide to Repurposing.
  • You can also partner with influencers in your field and have them promote your podcast on their channels. 

Finally, don’t forget to use traditional marketing tactics, such as email marketing and print advertising, to reach a broader audience and earn trust from them. By marketing the podcast in the same way you would your business, you can ensure that you are reaching the right people and getting the most out of your efforts.

3. Build Trust and Authority: Build it over time by creating content that is consistently resonating with your intended audience.

Building trust and authority with your intended audience is essential in content marketing for established course creators. To do this, you must create content that resonates with them on a consistent basis.

In order to make sure that your content is consistently resonating with your audience, it is important to have a deep understanding of who your audience is and what kind of content they are looking for. By understanding the needs and interests of your audience, you can create content that is tailored to them, and that will build trust and authority over time.

Additionally, it is important to be consistent in the frequency of your content. You need to build up a reputation as a reliable source of content that your audience can trust and rely on. Finally, it is also important to ensure that your content is high quality and contains valuable information your audience is looking for. By consistently producing high-quality content that resonates with your audience, you will be able to build trust and authority over time. If you create top-notch content that connects with your audience on a regular basis, you can gradually establish credibility and influence.

The Hidden Ways To Build Trust With Consistency

One of the key things Jeremy and I talked about is moving beyond the initial phases of content and into a body of work. The idea is that once you’ve made hundreds of posts or videos, it’s going to be very apparent if you’re just repeating what you’ve consumed. More likely, you’ve moved through Imposter Syndrome mindset issues and you’ve mastered balancing vulnerability with expertise. 

Though Leadership requires trustworthy content

The term “regurgitating consumed content” implies that someone simply repeats or regurgitates information they have learned without adding original thoughts or insights. The “thought leadership stage” suggests that the individual is now able to move beyond this stage and contribute unique and valuable ideas to the field. In other words, they have moved from being a passive consumer of information to an active creator and contributor of knowledge.

To enter the thought leadership stage, you’ll want to:

  1. Create more than you consume (so you don’t accidentally stay in the regurgitation phase)
  2. Acknowledge your content is another person’s roadmap
  3. Honor the basic level of respect your audience has in you and not lead them astray with your content

Trust is built on experience with an individual (or institution, for that matter). Will you trust a doctor who prescribed you something with awful side effects? Not likely! Similarly, your audience would lost trust with you if your tactic suggestions failed or hurt them.

Key takeaway: Trust in a relationship is much easier when you’ve got a proven track record.

Conclusion

With a bit of planning and thoughtful execution, course creators and content marketers can authentically automate their marketing and establish a meaningful connection with their audience. By resetting expectations, marketing the long-form content, and creating content that resonates with your audience, you can build trust and authority over time and create a long-lasting connection with your intended audience. With the right strategies in place, anyone can achieve the same success as Jeremy Enns and move beyond the regurgitating consumed content phase and into the real thought leadership stage.

I’d love to hear how you apply The Trust Building Content Strategy to get trust and connection. Leave me a comment on how it went for you, or drop any questions you want me to answer!

More on Jeremy Enns:

Website  | Instagram | LinkedIn

Resources Mentioned

This is a show about content marketing for established course creators. Unlike other shows about marketing, we focus on sustainable, measurable content creation. How to authentically automate your marketing, to build up your know like and trust factor with a nurtured, engaged audience and get back to actually living your life instead of working to live. Hey there friends. We are back with another edition of our Shiny Happy Tactics series here on the podcast. And this one's going to be about how content, long standing and yes, long format content really gives our audience a way to connect with us and build that trust. Build the know like and trust factor, of course, yes, but ultimately build real trust that allows them to engage with your buying journey. And today I'm going to be talking with Jeremy Enns. He's the creator of Podcast Marketing Academy where he teaches brands and creators to hit their next growth milestones with detailed step by step marketing playbooks. He also writes the Scrappy Podcasting newsletter where he shares short actionable ideas around how underdog shows can punch above their weight. I found Jeremy through a Scrappy podcasting newsletter and as you'll hear in the interview in a little bit, not sure how I ended up on the newsletter, but one of his emails resonated so well with me that I actually emailed him and said, I'd really love to continue this conversation. Would you be so kind as to come on to the know like and Trust show so we could do that? And there's a quote from that email that I'm going to share with you right now. "Better than any other medium, podcasts allow us a real and authentic window into the minds, hearts and souls of our favorite hosts." I loved that so, so much. Because friends, that is what good nurturing content does for your business. Jeremy and I are going to talk about that. We're going to talk about how the breadth and body of work that you can build when you have these long format content offerings, whether it's a podcast, a blog, a video channel, whatever it happens to be is leagues above all the Shiny happy tactics out there that some of the people are teaching. We're going to cover exactly what you would expect on this topic. Yes, a little bit about podcasting and how you can build trust over time. But we're also going to talk about how marketing your course or your service business will be different when you commit to a longstanding content strategy. And we're going to talk about how when you talk about something for an extended period of time, you really come into your own. You move beyond the regurgitating consumed content phase and into the Real true thought leadership stage. It helps with everything from understanding how you can consistently show up to moving through Imposter Syndrome and beyond. Jeremy kind of closes it with some really powerful gold. I'm not going to tease that here, but let's dive into the conversation now. All right, well, Jeremy, welcome to the know, like and trust show.

Jeremy Enns 00:03:02

Thanks so much for having me, Britney. I'm excited to be here.

Britney Gardner 00:03:04

I'm really interested in where this conversation goes and for listeners at home. I ended up on Jeremy's newsletter a couple of months back, and he sent out what I thought was a really provocative email in the sense that it got me thinking. And obviously I love anything that makes me think deeply, but this was one of those emails that I thought about, and then a day later, I was still thinking about it, and then I reached out to Jeremy, and I was like, could we talk about this? I think that'd be really fun. And it's not that many emails I get that actually hang out with me for a full day and my thoughts after I read them, so thank you.

Jeremy Enns 00:03:40

That's like the holy grail of feedback for a newsletter writer. I think so many people there's such a divide. I think now newsletters are coming back and they're kind of sexy again, but there's still a ton of people who just feels like, why would I want something in my inbox? Why would anybody want that? And so I'm a huge newsletter nerd, and I've probably subscribed to 100 newsletters, and I certainly don't read all of them every week, but I love newsletters, and I think you're always wondering, are people actually reading this? And if they are, are they actually thinking about it? And so, yeah, I super love that and appreciate that feedback.

Britney Gardner 00:04:13

Yeah, I mean, you're on 100 newsletters. I can't imagine keeping up with that. I feel like every time I end up with more than, like, 20 or so, I just start unsubscribing. It's nothing against the people sending it. I just can't engage with that much, I guess. I don't know.

Jeremy Enns 00:04:27

Yeah, me neither. I kind of treat it as my alternate social feed, where it's like when I feel the impulse to read something, I'm like, oh, I have set up an email address just for newsletters. And it's not like marketing newsletters. It's like things that are like, you would set up a podcast feed where it's like stuff that I actually want and I can kind of just scroll through whenever I'm looking for something to read, have ten minutes, and kind of see whatever catches my eye. So I guess pay attention to subject lines if you're a newsletter writer, because I think that's how a lot of people who are oversubscribed end up picking what they're reading.

Britney Gardner 00:04:57

I probably should have set up a separate email address for newsletters and never did, and changing them all over at this point would probably be somewhat difficult. So I think I'm just in this boat. But I feel like there are certain newsletters I do read religiously as they come out, and for those, if I receive them in a time when I can't actually sit down and read. I leave them unread and I'll go back and actually mark them as unread if I accidentally open them. It's like my way of handling things. And then when I'm sitting in a waiting room for one of my kids appointments, or I'm waiting for something to happen, timing, cooking wise or whatever, I pop in there and engage with them. But you're right, for someone to be paying so much attention, right to a particular email newsletter is really kind of the Holy Grail. I mean, you said it really well. I feel like when that happens, it's something I always want to pay attention to. And the really good ones, in my book at least, they end up in the ideas folder. They have like, an email inbox folder. And I'm like, okay, what made this particular article, newsletter, whatever you want to call it, so interesting to me. And then I sit there picking it apart and of course they want to try and do that with my own content, right? So I'm looking at it and like, how can we break this down into a framework? Is there a formula that they're following? And most of them, when I go back, there's not a formula formula. It's just a really good idea. It's a really good thought. And I think the thought that you shared in this particular one, which was that podcasting over time builds up that relational aspect that you cannot get from a social media post, you cannot get from a single blog article that someone happened to link to. It gives you that intimacy. And that right there is an area where you can build trust that you just can't replicate in another way.

Jeremy Enns 00:06:42

Yeah, it's interesting. Podcasting has changed so much over the past. I don't know, I got into podcasting, whatever, in 2023 now, so must be seven years ago at this point now or eight years ago, almost kind of 2015 ish 2015 2016. And back then, like, when I first started working with clients, so I started out as a freelance podcast editor and then built up a production agency. And now I've kind of transitioned into the marketing side of things. If you had a pretty solid show, you would just grow. You didn't really need to market it. And I think back then, one of the big draws, like everybody, there was a gold rush on podcasting as a way to grow your audience and to get new exposure. And a lot of people still subscribe to that kind of mindset when they start a new show. They're like, this is going to grow my audience. And it just is not like that at all anymore. And so I don't know if it was in that newsletter that you read or there's certainly another one that I've written before, which is kind of like the point of starting a podcast. It's not to grow your audience, it's to nurture the audience that you already have. And you need to reset your expectations around that. And if you do, then you can view this as this fantastic tool that nothing else really does that well. But you can't expect it to also be getting you exposure to hundreds of thousands of new people or however many you're aiming for. Maybe it's just like 1000 people. And I think that that is the source of I heard this quote years ago on one of my early clients. The source of all unhappiness is misaligned expectations. And I think about that all the time with podcasting where there are just usually this huge delta between expectation and reality. And I think for me, with all creative work, sometimes I think about like, if I knew how hard this was going to be when I started out, like, what I've done this, would I have wanted to know? And part of me thinks, yeah, I would have done it anyway just because I'm a creative person. It's kind of an impulse, like, I can't help myself, I'm going to do stuff like this. But also I'm kind of like, man, it is a lot of work to get into this. But I think it helps to have that your eyes open up like, okay, this is the role this plays in your business and your content ecosystem. Don't try to put a square peg into a round hole and force it to do this other thing that it's just not going to do. And like, when you know that, then you can go look somewhere else, you're like, okay, well, I need to get exposure. I'm not going to rely on my podcast to do that. I'm going to go find that somewhere else and then funnel it back to the show.

Britney Gardner 00:08:53

Yeah, no, it was a powerful quote. I really enjoyed it. Because the interesting thing is I went back through my media kit about a month ago and I had, you know, links to a bunch of podcasts that are no longer publishing. And some of them only went, you know, as long as, you know, 25 episodes or so. And I don't remember what the actual stats are when people start to pat pod fade. I think it's actually before 20 episodes, but I looked at how many of them and of course I'm just like editing, like delete, delete, delete, right? If you get into this expecting it to do that thing and it doesn't do that thing, it feels like a waste of time or it feels like a failed endeavor. And for me, at least when I started my podcast, which was probably right around the same time as you, I think I started in 2016 and I took a long break in the middle there. But when I came back, I've been back for a while and I did start my podcast to become marketable, to gain an audience. And I did do that at first, the first like two years or so, it was really good at bringing leads. And when I came back to it two years later after taking that break, I did not experience the same thing. But I feel like I came back to it with a completely different business mindset as a whole. And part of it was, hey, this is how I can show people I'm in it for the long haul. Building authority, building trust, all of those things, right? And it's become the content arm of my business. But I think some of those podcasts I've been a guest on that are no longer publishing, they were maybe expecting it to do, quote, unquote, the marketing for their business. And it didn't.

Jeremy Enns 00:10:32

Yeah, I kind of feel like you need to market your podcast. Like it's almost the same amount of work marketing your podcast as marketing your business. And hopefully there's overlap between the two. So you're kind of and there is. So like, if you market your podcast, then you're getting people in there and then they're also coming into your business really warmed up already. So it's kind of like on the one hand you could kind of say like, and I guess this is actually how I think about my content. Almost all of my marketing is focused on my newsletters and then like products and stuff like that that's built into the newsletters. And so I don't need to worry about marketing my course or marketing my consulting services because really I just market the newsletters. That's where I put all my time and attention and then those do the work to warm people up and give people awareness up to what my offerings are. And so I think sometimes times when you realize that you get into a podcast and you're like, I started this to be marketing for my business, but now I need to market this. It's kind of like, well, you're just, like, almost passing it further up the chain, almost, where it's like, yeah, you still need to do the same amount of work regardless. It's just choosing where you're directing that. And I think the great thing about a podcast is, I mean, podcast and email, I would say, is those are owned platforms, nobody's taking those away from you. There's no algorithmic changes happening at this point. And once people are in, they are just going to keep getting that if they love the content, of course. And so then you have so many more touch points, whereas I think about sometimes of people who focus on especially like ad driven type businesses where it's like, okay, you're getting that attention once, directing it back to a website, probably you are trying to get that lead right then. But if you don't, and I guess you could say this for a podcast as well, if they don't click play. I just feel like a podcast feels like a more generous offering that people are not as skeptical of as an ad driven lead magnet or sales page or something like that. And the funny thing is, for me, I'm a writer, so I have two newsletters and no podcasts currently, but have had in the past and will have more. I've experimented with running ads to my newsletter directly or to a free course that I've charged $100 for this course before and I think it's actually worth a lot more than that. And the newsletter performs better in ads, which is so weird to me that I think people just they expect like, oh, this is a newsletter, I know what I'm signing up for. The reason I'm giving over my email address is because I want the content. And I think podcasts are the same thing where people are signing up because they actually want it. It's not this bait and switch or anything like that. And so I think if you're going to put your energy somewhere, I would rather get people into content and it's just then adjusting your expectations of like, okay, I'm not going to make a sale today. I'm going to like in six months or like a year or three years or something, that's when the sale is going to come from any one person and probably it's going to be distributed across all of that. But if I can just keep creating content, eventually there's going to be people who entered my ecosystem a year or two years ago, and just by virtue of me doing what I've been doing for forever, how long it's been, then those sales are going to start coming in and almost like you can't pinpoint what actually happened, like, what led to it. It's just like they've got to know you over multiple years, multiple months, whatever it is, and at some point you made the offer at the right time that resonated with them and that was the time for them to take you up on it.

Britney Gardner 00:13:31

Just this morning I got a Google survey, and it's a feedback form I have as part of my Evergreen course. And the woman who filled it out more or less said, I've been listening to your podcast for a while and I just knew now was the time for me to do this. My only regret is not doing it sooner. And I feel like that's one of the best things as a person who markets courses or programs, services, whatever, right, that right there tells you that the marketing that you're doing is doing the job. Now, I did not have time to go back and check exactly when this person came onto my email list. I'm pretty sure it's last spring, but last spring until now, February, as we're recording this, right, that's a good ten or maybe nine months spread. And I'm okay with that. I am 100% okay with that because I know when someone buys something from me after waiting nine months to do so, it's not a flip decision and they're actually going to engage with the content in that course rather than buy it and shelve it. And I'd rather that any day. I'd rather know that they're really, truly going to get results from the thing that they purchased. And when you put out that kind of marketing, whether it's a newsletter, whether it's podcast, right, we have the opportunity to engage with those people with the information that we've already put out there. That's our thought leadership, it's everything we believe in. But on their end, it's a pretty low lift. Pressing play on a podcast button, you know what I mean? Like you're driving to an appointment, you're out on a walk, getting some exercise, whatever it is, right, three minutes and you don't like it, you can stop. You don't have to disengage in a hard and no kind of fashion. You just leave it behind. I like that, that's there. For me as a consumer, I really enjoy being able to do that. Sometimes the podcast is recommended to me and I just don't vibe with it. Their format of speaking, the way they range things, I don't know, but it doesn't feel like I'm rejecting them. When I just stop listening, it feels like, okay, this wasn't for me and I can move on.

Jeremy Enns 00:15:35

Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned that too. I have noticed the exact same thing with my course. And so typically I'll do launches twice a year, usually spring and fall, and I'll do like a multi day free event leading up to it. So it'll be a workshop, it will be three or four days, something like that. And the first time I did that, I think that was in the third. The first two launches were kind of betas that were to my existing community. Then I started going more public from through launches 3456 and coming up with seven. And now that I have enough data, having done these workshops, I guess four times at this point, what's been really interesting is just seeing like I always like, look, okay, when did this person enter my email ecosystem? And usually it's either one or two launches ago, I'll get a big influx of people. These will be promoted pretty widely in their free workshop, like multiple days. Again, these courses probably like a lot of people would pay for. And always the first time I did it, I expected this is going to be the thing that's going to convert people into my course. And it just didn't work that way. And I think I maybe got something like 300 people signed up to the workshop and maybe of those, I don't know, four signed up for my course or something like that. And the rest another like 15 who signed up for the course that time I think had already been on my newsletter for multiple years at this point. And I was like, that workshop really didn't work that well. And then I was thinking, like, maybe I shouldn't do that again next time. Like, it's so much work. I think it took like 100 hours to put together and everything. I was like, that was a lot of work for not that much pay off. And it didn't really perform as well as some other people who had done, like, challenge style kind of live events. Theirs had converted, but I kept doing it. And now what I've realized with that data is every time now I can see back and I'm like, oh, it is worth doing it. It's just a longer kind of time for it to pay off. But in between that, that's where the podcast with the newsletter sits, where it's like, it keeps you top of mind. It reminds people that, oh, I went through this course, had a good experience, and he's like, wow, before the next launch, I've read another, like, 25 newsletters or something like that. I'm just getting all this good content. Then there's another free live event and it's like, wow, that's a lot of great stuff. And now this course is opening up again. And so I think just understanding, I think one of the things I wish I knew early on is that this type of customer lifecycle is normal and everything else is like an outlier. When you hear people about like, oh, yeah, you can get people into your course in your funnel. You just turn on the ads and within a day you've got all these people. It's like, well, yeah, probably people who did that, they're selling a specific type of product with a specific type of marketing that I'm not really a big fan of. And they also have honed all these skills like learning Facebook ads and all that copywriting. You don't learn that overnight. And so I think for me, just understanding, like, oh, this is normal and this feels good to me and I can sustain this. And now that I'm up and running, now there's just going to be a steady flow of people through that ecosystem, each at a different kind of point. And it's kind of just like, okay, I know this works. I'm just going to keep doing it. And I can trust that kind of the results are going to kind of continue to build as long as I keep doing these things that I know are already working.

Britney Gardner 00:18:26

It's interesting because I think a lot of people do the exact same thing that you did, right? You held the workshop and you're like, oh, it didn't really work. And that was a lot of work on my end to get it going, right? But I think I don't know. The stats I've seen are at any given time, only 3% of your audience is ready to buy, and neither 97% falls into a number of segments. There's going to be the people who are never going to buy more power to them, right? They'll figure it out on their own, or they won't. There's going to be the people who really do want to buy right now, but for whatever reason they can't. Whether it's actually financial, which is a real reason, or whether they're just busy with other things, maybe they've got something going on in their life and they just don't want to devote time to a live cohort based course when they know they're not going to get everything out of it. And then there's the people who are just unsure of you. And like that segment alone, if you kind of give up on the nurturing in between, if they didn't have the opportunity to see your newsletter for those 25 editions in between, if you weren't putting out regular content via a podcast or newsletter, right? Those people are going to feel let down by you. And the next time you do launch, they are not going to trust you. They're not going to be ready. They're going to be like, oh, he shows up when he's about to launch and that's it. So for two of those segments, they're not quite ready to trust you yet. And for the ones who did want to buy but they just couldn't for whatever reason, you're doing your business a disservice by forgetting all the work that you put in to get those people to that place at that point. And you'd essentially be starting over with two out of the three segments out there, which is disheartening if you actually look at it that way.

Jeremy Enns 00:19:59

Yeah, that's another thing that I think I haven't written about this yet, but it's bumbled around the back of my mind of something that feels that is unaddressed in marketing and kind of creator online business world is this. Idea of just like I mean, consistency gets talked about a lot, but I don't think people just think, like, oh, I got to produce an episode every week, or I got to send a newsletter every week. That's what that means. I got to post on Instagram three times a week, or whatever the cadence that's like, okay, part of that matters, like the frequency of interaction and touchpoint. Yeah, I think that matters, but I think equally is the consistency of experience that you deliver through those. If you have like once a month, you have a great post, and then the rest of your posts on social media are just kind of like garbage. Well, the average has been lowered. People's perception of you is like, oh yeah, occasionally they have some good ideas, but most of it is just clickbait, or it's like copied from somewhere else. The average is pretty low. And so I think that part of consistency matters a lot more than frequency or matters just as much maybe as frequency. But then this other idea of consistency over the really long term, and I noticed that now where I think in people's it's interesting when I talk to people about becoming doing a partnership on something like that, maybe related to a course launch or something like that. Now when I do outreach and I say, hey, I'm in like, Cohort seven, people's perception is different, especially like established people who of course at the start when I launched my first cohort, there were people who I knew kind of decently. Well, I was asking if they would be interested in being an affiliate or helping out promote, and they politely passed and I was like, but this is like the best course on podcast. It was really like the only one at the time on podcast marketing. And I was like, this is so needed and I know your audience would really value this. And in hindsight, I'm like, oh yeah, that makes perfect sense that they would not trust that. I haven't proven, even though I've been in podcasting five years, I haven't proven as a content creator being more like, writing regularly, producing the course regularly. I haven't proven that I'm in this for the long haul. And it reflects on everyone who recommends anything to their audience. Like you recommend a course to somebody who then they do it once and then maybe there's a community component with it, maybe the videos are hosted online, but then they can't get anybody in for the second cohort or whatever, and so they pull them down to avoid paying $50 a month for this. There's a risk, I think, early on that of anyone who's buying into the course or promoting a course or a product or anything like that. And I think the doors start to open for you. I think when you've proven that you've written like 200, 300, 500 blog posts, you put out 500 podcast episodes or like multiple hundreds or whatever it is, people see that and they're like, oh, this person is serious. And because I think people are savvy enough to know how hard it is to create all these things even if they haven't done it themselves. And I think that that's just a huge part of things get a lot easier when you have a proven track record. Like that not even of like, you've made a million dollars or whatever. It's like, you've put in the work in creating the content and it's almost like, how could you create that much content and not like, know what you're talking about when it comes to your topic? And so I think, like, that's another thing that's like, yeah, that doesn't happen over 30 episodes or 50 episodes. That's like, you know, you get past 100 episodes, 100 blog posts, newsletter issues, whatever it is, and then all of a sudden you're like, okay, like, this person is, is serious and I can trust them with almost with even like, listening to any of the content yet it is a different type of trust. But it's like, okay, this person is committed.

Britney Gardner 00:23:14

You touched on something. That I first of all, I love I've had so many conversations with various different people on that particular topic because if you've put out 100 of anything, like you said, you can cover the basics of your belief system, your value system in 20 episodes, but it's where they start intersecting, right? All that nuance starts kind of popping up and you're like, yeah, no, I believe this, but here's where that breaks down. And you have to look at this other thing. And you can't cover that in the initial phases of anything because it's too it goes down like the little vein, like rabbit hole, right? The veins keep separating and keep separating and you can't get to those outlying veins that really boost up who you are and what you stand for until you've covered the big ones. And it just takes time. And I think I've covered this in episodes I've done on Imposter syndrome in the past, right. The easiest way in my book to get over or through imposter syndrome syndrome is just to keep talking because you can't not know what you're talking about. If you keep going, it will become very apparent that you're just making stuff up. You're regurgitating other people's information, whatever it is, right. If you keep going, it has to come from you at some point. And at that point you've moved beyond the am I good enough or do I know enough or am I worthy to tell people about this? That's how you get there. And yeah, it takes some consistency to get their consistency in quality and messaging, obviously frequency as well. But when you get there, nobody who's done any of this work like you said can look at that and say, I mean, they're a maybe you got to be on board or not.

Jeremy Enns 00:24:56

Yeah, I like that. And I think the other thing that's worth noting there is there will be an inflection point. You will probably go through those 20 episodes or whatever kind of content you're creating. And I think there's no way to avoid like, I think we all think we're somewhat original at the start, but really the first 2000 and 5000 iterations of anything are largely if you're just starting out, that's largely borrowed from other people and that's fine. There's no way really around that. And it's like you got to skim off that top layer just to get past it. And then there's going to be a point where I think a lot of people, maybe not everybody, but I think most people are going to be like, well, I don't know what to talk about. I already covered all the stuff. And I think, like, that's the point where, like, some people quit. And, like, I've certainly done that before. Where the first time I started writing about podcasting in 2017, before I took, like, a several year break. I, like, covered all the topics that I thought I was supposed to cover, and I covered them in my voice. And we, you know, with my kind of insights on them, but they were all the things that, like, you know, of new people ask about. And so I was like, okay, I checked off all the things. I didn't do SEO research, but if I had, like, those would be the things that would come up. The most common questions about podcasting I could look on Quora Reddit or whatever. These things would come up. I probably wrote 30 or 50 articles. And then I was like, I guess I got nothing more to say. And then, like, two or three years went by and I spent more time working in the industry and started noticing more things that were much more nuanced, that annoyed me, or that I thought people were missing. And it was like this deeper layer where now it wasn't quite as searchable necessarily, but it was things that when people read them, they were like, oh, I've never heard anybody talk about this kind of stuff before or in this context. And I think that's where you start to get into, like you have to exhaust all that initial kind of samey type stuff. And because, of course, we're all influenced by all the stuff we're already consuming, we hear other people on podcast were like, oh, they've got a podcast for a similar business to mine. Like, maybe I should do that. And you start looking at like, well, okay, what kind of episodes do they have? And this person over here. And you start to piece together like, oh, this must be what people want, so I'm going to create those episodes. But then you'll reach a point where you really feel like the well is dry, and it's like all the good stuff on the other side of that, when you dig deeper or keep digging below that, and then you really find the stuff that nobody else is creating because it's so kind of personally filtered through your lens. And that's, I think, where a lot of the long term loyalty of an audience comes from, because now they're not just coming to you for information, they're like, coming to you because of you and your unique kind of perspective on the world.

Britney Gardner 00:27:16

I love that you just nailed that on the other side of your dry well. Right? I have nothing to embed because that was really good. All right. I like that. That was lovely. Jeremy, this has been an awesome conversation. I appreciate it. I don't want to go too long. Do you have any closing thoughts?

Jeremy Enns 00:27:35

I think things for me with marketing and business just opened up. It's almost like the longer the time horizon I think about things, the less pressure I feel. And I don't know how much of your audience identifies as creative people. I certainly do. And that's what's led into business. It was like creativity first found its way into business. Now I love the creativity of business and marketing, but when I think about what I'm doing, I'm like, okay, well, I might not be doing this business or writing these newsletters forever, but I'm going to be doing something in 50 years that's creative and so I don't need to figure it out right now. I'm kind of looking at like, if I'm laying the groundwork now, where am I going to be to set myself up for success in 20 years? And you look that far ahead and you're like, oh, I can make a lot of mistakes and mess up and waste a whole lot of time right now and it doesn't really matter. And I think that really lowers the pressure that we kind of all feel like we need to have it figured out now. Whereas when you're really playing the long game, it's like, okay, I'll get there eventually. And I don't need to, I think even thinking about scammy or shady or marketing tactics or anything like that that are so urgency focused, it's like, no, I want to do this right because I hope that I have people who are following my creative projects along in some way or another for the next 50 years. How cool would that be? I can't even imagine what that must be like. But that feels like such a special relationship and so I want to make sure that I'm optimizing for that, not for the in the moment. And I think that it helps you market in a way that's where most of us is, I think, more aligned with ourselves. It helps us just feel better on a day to day basis when we feel like we're not moving fast enough. And I think the other thing that I think about a lot is when you think about that time span, it kind of feels like we all start out in this cluster of people all working towards the same narrow kind of goal, but over time we all kind of spread out in different directions. And so you just keep going and you'll end up in the space that's like, only you occupy and there's like zero competition. I feel like it's so hard to think over 20 years that you would still all the people you started with are going to be creating similar content. And so I think you really develop this kind of personal monopoly if you just keep going and following your own intuition and just keep going ahead. And I think that's where a lot of the good stuff is.

Britney Gardner 00:29:42

Yeah, I think that's a great way to close this app. So obviously you run a cohort based course. Where else I know you said two newsletters. Where else can people find out more about you if they're also loving this conversation?

Jeremy Enns 00:29:55

Yeah, put together a page where people can go to find all my stuff. And so you can find that at podcastmarketingacademy. Comnolike. Trust all one word and so there. I've got both newsletters. I'm mainly active on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can find those links there. And I've got some free courses. All kinds of good stuff there.

Britney Gardner 00:30:11

Jeremy, I appreciate it.

Jeremy Enns 00:30:12

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Britney Gardner 00:30:13

Brittany all right, Jeremy, again, from the bottom of my heart, I thank you. This conversation was so good. I really enjoy these conversations where we just talk back and forth about something that we've both been noodling on, something that's been bouncing around in the back of our heads and just gives an opportunity to get those words out with someone who feels the same way. Yes, but can provide additional insight. And what Jeremy shared there at the end all about being in this for the long haul and just really knowing that even if you aren't doing this exact service or this exact course, in five years, ten years, 20 years and beyond, you will be doing some sort of work that flows from this because it's built from you. It's built from who you are and what you stand for. And the medium may change. Absolutely. For most of us, it's going to change at some point, but how you put it all together really becomes who you are, and that's a pretty dang cool legacy. So, with that, we'll see you next week. If you found value from this episode, there are two things you can do to thank me. The first is share it with a friend. If you enjoyed this episode, you learned something from it. Odds are you know somebody who needs to hear this message. I do truly believe that a rising tide lifts all boats and if you help that friend with something that they need to do, we're going to have less crappy marketers out there, which means less scams, and we get to help more people in those ways that we uniquely are meant to help them. The second thing you can do is leave a rating on whichever podcast app you are listening to the show on right now. Doing that helps me reach more people, getting again this same great information out there and we all make a better, happier, effective and ethical world as a result. Thanks so much. See you next week.

Music by Michael De La Torre. Thanks, Mikey!

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