Conquer Your Fears & Boost Your Business with Joanna Lindenbaum #242

00:00:06 - Speaker A This is a show about content marketing for established, sophisticated online businesses. Unlike other shows about marketing, we focus on sustainable, measurable content creation, how to authentically automate your marketing, to build up your know, like and trust factor with a nurtured, engaged audience between launches and get back to actually living your life instead of working to live. Hey. Hey everyone. We are continuing our Visibility Kerfuffle series and I am well, frankly, I'm thrilled about this particular talk it went and you'll hear in the conversation a very different direction than I had originally intended. And originally I was going to have Joanna talk about the shiny happy tactics that we all use when we're marketing our businesses and our services, but we ended up talking a lot about fear and I love conversations that just shift and kind of weave, and this is definitely one of those, but it happened fairly quickly. So I want to introduce Joanna Lindenbaum. She's the creator of Sacred Depth Transformational Practitioner Training and she teaches master level facilitation and coaching skills to coaches, healers, therapists and speakers so they can respond powerfully and effectively to the issues their clients bring to them. Using her 20 years of experience and extensive background with human behavior, embodiment practices and archetype and shadow, Joanna's approach to ethical and traumainformed facilitation and coaching supports her students to gain a level of skill, confidence and depth the majority of their peers don't have. So right there you can already tell that talking about Visibility is probably a good fit for Joanna. So we're going to go there and we're going to talk about the fear that comes up when you are embracing, showing up for your business and showing up for your people. With that. Let's hop right in. Joanna, welcome.

00:01:58 - Speaker B Thanks so much for having me.

00:02:00 - Speaker A I am really looking forward to this conversation. Most of my conversations kind of start with me saying that, but it's because I only have people on the show who I'm genuinely interested in talking with. It's like kind of the cool, hidden, selfish perk of being a podcast host, right?

00:02:15 - Speaker B So true.

00:02:17 - Speaker A But that said, why don't you tell us just a little bit about you and then we can kind of get rolling.

00:02:21 - Speaker B Great. Well, I'm the creator of the Sacred Depths Transformational Practitioner Training and what I really do is I support transformational practitioners, mostly coaches, but also therapists, acupuncturists, also healers, to be able to go deeper with their clients and to support their clients with all of the inevitable obstacles and fears that come up. And the reason why I'm so passionate about it is because for as much as I love the transformational industry, I feel like there's some problems and there isn't always standing behind marketing promises or supporting clients to make as much progress as they could. So that's kind of like my stealth mission in the world.

00:03:08 - Speaker A I like that because you didn't immediately start hiding behind best practices. Are this. You're like, we're just not making as much progress, right? Because that's a fairly loose term as well. And I used to have this big I used to be a photographer way, way back in the day. And I would always get really annoyed because there'd be, like, these posts on a forum or a thread, you need to raise your prices. And I was always yelling, like, no, stop saying that.

00:03:35 - Speaker B In a vacuum.

00:03:36 - Speaker A You know nothing about their life. You know nothing about their skill level. You know nothing about their confidence level. And doubling one's price isn't just a numbers thing. There's so much other stuff that goes with it. And that was always such a big red flag for me. It bugged me. And then on the flip side, I would then get an email from a potential client, like a bride and groom. We're on a budget. What can you do? And I'd be like, well, sweetie, everyone's on a budget. Your budget might be $10,000, or it might be $100,000 for your wedding. I don't know. But it's still a budget. And I feel like so much of that stuff out there is just like these hard and fast rules, and it doesn't take into account the individual.

00:04:20 - Speaker B That's exactly right. I love the example you gave because it's so pervasive with the prices. And one of the things that I'm always saying is, coach the what based on the who. And you could also insert into that, consult the what based on the who. Every who, every client, every community member is going to be different in terms of what their fears are, what their capacity is, what their resources are, what they're ready for, what season of life they're in. And to just make these blanket statements, raise your rates or you must make reels for instagram, or this is the only way to grow a business, or whatever it is, it's not taking the who into account. And the more that we can really see and hear the person in front of us and hear where they're at and hear what the fears are and understand all the pieces, then we can personalize things and support them in much better and aligned ways.

00:05:25 - Speaker A So, yes, I mean, yes to all of that. Obviously. I released a podcast episode this week. Yesterday? Yeah, yesterday. Today is Tuesday, turns out. Yes, it was yesterday. And I basically said in the podcast episode that a content strategy template does not exist. And the reason for that is you are a unique person, therefore, your business has certain unique traits about it. And the way you serve your best client also has unique traits. And you put all those together, and it's a kaleidoscope of things that cannot be separated. But I do think there are people out there who use that, oh, we don't have templates because we can't fit you into a box. And I don't mean it as a cop out I mean it as a hey, this requires some deep thought. So what's your take on that? Especially like, coaching the who, right? Yes, absolutely.

00:06:23 - Speaker B So I am also a fan of templates. I have templates for many things that I give out. But the idea is, how are you going to use that template? How are you going to personalize that template? How are you going to tweak the template this way or that way to work it for each individual client? And how are you going to teach your clients how to take a template and actually tweak it for themselves? Then they have a repeatable skill that they can use for years to come in their business. So, yes, I love templates and offering ideas for language and kind of passageways or journeys for this is what a sales call looks like, et cetera. But then always, how do you tailor it and how do you support clients to understand themselves where they want their businesses to go so that they can continue to tailor it for themselves?

00:07:22 - Speaker A So when we're looking at that, right, we're looking at supporting the client on the individual basis. We have our own frameworks, we have our own templates, if you will, right. That we kind of follow what happens when we meet a client and we have that moment where we recognize this is not going to work for them.

00:07:41 - Speaker B Yeah, such a great question. So first I'll say what we shouldn't do, because there's a lot of kind of advice in the business industry and the coaching industry for marketers, that if someone doesn't fit within your template or within your how to, they're just not an ideal client, or they don't want it enough, or they're not coachable and so you just let them go. And I just want to kind of make a passionate plea for don't do that, at least not at first, because oftentimes if a template isn't fitting for a client or a certain framework, one of two things are happening. Number one, either that particular framework or template isn't completely aligned for that client. Or number two, that client has kind of gone into some fear and resistance, and the template actually could be a really good fit for them, but you want to be able to support them, to work through the fear and the resistance. So you don't want to just let it go. You want to go back, first of all, to see, where is this aligned? Where is this not aligned? Use visioning skills and strategizing skills to support that client who they might need a little something else. And then for the client that's gotten stuck in fear, resistance oftentimes like a core fear of I'm not going to be able to do this, or I'm not good enough, or this isn't going to work. On the surface, the defense mechanism is that template isn't for me or you're not able to help me. And so we want skills to be able to go deeper with those clients, to support them in the fear, so that they can move forward, so that they can use the frameworks, make it work for them, and have the courage to move forward.

00:09:36 - Speaker A So I love that. And I'm thinking, like, in my own business, of course, right? You start saying this, and I'm like, oh, how could I do that for so and so? And I'm already diving down that path, right? How can I make sure that something I believe in very strongly?

00:09:49 - Speaker B Right.

00:09:49 - Speaker A The framework that I've set up actually works in various different situations. And I think what you're getting at here, correct me if I'm wrong, is that when you've got a way of doing something and it's not fitting for somebody, it's an opportunity for you to also look at your framework, right. Or your template. It's a way for you to say, is this not aligning with a very particular kind of person? And that person is really just not a good match for me? Or is there a way we can kind of step back and address the reasons why it isn't working and then bring it back and find that it does work after all? Absolutely. What?

00:10:26 - Speaker B You said so beautifully so to that first piece, who is this not working for and why? And then look at the different whys. So some of it is going to be because that client, that kind of person, isn't aligned for me to work with. Great. Refine your marketing to speak to that. But I think even the bigger piece for me is don't exclude folks who are scared because they just need that extra support and that extra holding to have the confidence and the courage to move forward with it.

00:11:06 - Speaker A I end up dealing with that with certain clients quite often. There's usually a part, like a point in time, shall we say, where they're maybe a halfway or two thirds of the way through my full done for you content plan with them. And they're in the work. They're in the slog. I don't lie to my clients. I don't sugarcoat it. What that part feels like is work. And you're like, oh my gosh, I was doing this to get out of being off the content hamster wheel, and now I feel like I'm triple deep in it. And I always have to remind people of that part. You are doing the work right now to save yourself time later. And we are almost done. You are more than halfway done. How can we support you right now in this part that feels really hard so that you can get to the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, right. And I have noticed three, four, five clients in a row. It's that exact same moment. And it's not that it's bad. It's not that it's not a fit for them. It's not that they can't do it it's that they were looking forward to this expectation that things were going to become easier. And it doesn't matter how many times I say to people, it's going to get a little bit harder before it gets easier. When it smacks them in the face, it's kind of like, well, it's a smack in the face, it's a rude awakening. Right? So I've learned that in that time period, I need to check in with my clients more often. And that doesn't mean that the format is wrong. It's just an area where I need to be a little extra compassionate.

00:12:39 - Speaker B Yeah, absolutely. I think there's two pieces in there. So first of all, one of the things you're speaking to I would call normalizing, which I always encourage coaches and transformational practitioners to do with their clients. Normalize the process. Normalize the fact that there are moments that are going to be slogs that are going to take work. Normalize the fact that there are moments where it's going to seem like it's not coming together, but it's actually just about to come together. You're in the thick of it. And also normalize, that fear can come up too. Fear of, oh my gosh, is this actually working? All of that. And that leads to the second piece, that particular moment that you're speaking to with your clients. It's like they've done the work and they've done the work and they've done the work and they maybe haven't seen a lot of results yet. Maybe they've seen some, but not a lot. And so there's this piece of, oh my gosh, I don't want to do the work, but for some people, there's also this piece of, is it going to pay off? Am I good enough? Is this good enough? I want to see the results now to know that I'm okay and that I'm on the right path. And it's so important for us as practitioners and coaches to know that that's going to come up in human nature to continue to normalize and also to really support deeply when those fears come up.

00:14:13 - Speaker A So knowing all of that, right, knowing that normalizing piece needs to be baked in, so to speak, into what you're doing, how do you approach that with your clients? Right? Where is the area that they start feeling that same? Is this going to pay off? Am I good enough? And how do you usually walk your people through that?

00:14:39 - Speaker B Yeah, great question. So there's two levels to it in terms of the normalizing. I actually start the normalizing in the sales process itself. And I'll often say to somebody, if you're looking for the coach or the training that's going to fly you to the moon and back in a day, this is not that place. This is what I know about from experience and human nature. It's a process. It takes time. So I bake it in already from before the yes. Ironically, it helps people say yes, even more easily because they're like, oh, she gets it, she's speaking the truth. And she actually knows how to hold someone who may veer off the path here and there, who isn't going to get it done in a day. And then I remind people throughout the process so that's one normalizing and setting empowering and stretchy yet realistic expectations from the get go. It also helps then take shame away, because whenever we set those unrealistic expectations and then it doesn't happen that way, then shame gets piled on top of it for the client, sometimes for the practitioner, right? And that's when things can go off the wall. So that's one piece, but the other piece, and this is one of the things that I train practitioners in, is that when those fears come up, we actually need, I believe we need some skills to support our clients with those fears. Fear is a natural response when a human being is in a process of growth. And if they're coming to a coach, business coach, whatever the coach they are, they're in a process of growth. What oftentimes happens is coaches that don't understand this, that fear is just a symptom of growth. They end up thinking something wrong has happened in the process. They'll pathologize their client or think their client isn't good enough, or think they've done something wrong. Instead of meeting the moment with, oh, this is just a natural part of the process, and then having some skills to work with the fears. So I get into kind of somatic techniques and different kind of cognitive and somatic techniques where we can really what I call befriend the fear. So most people, a fear comes up, I'm not good enough, this isn't going to work, I don't know how to do it, it's never going to happen for me. And they try to push the fear away and that's when they actually go into their resistance or their overwork, which we don't want either. But instead, I teach coaches and practitioners how to use this process where we become friends with the fear so that we can stay grounded even as the inevitable fear comes up and move forward. Anyway, I'm all about like there's a lot in the industry that's like, slay your fear, destroy your fear. We can't do that. The fear is actually the smoke detector that we need in the kitchen in case there's a kitchen fire. It's just that sometimes the smoke detector thinks burnt toast is the kitchen fire. So we need those skills not to get rid of the fear, but to get that smoke detector of the fear more aligned with what's actually happening in the moment.

00:18:19 - Speaker A That is such a good analogy. Oh my gosh. So just for the record, my brain went on like a whole thing. I'm like, oh, so when that fear comes up, am I going to start waving a pillow at it desperately? Or you know what I mean? Because we've all been in that situation, right?

00:18:34 - Speaker B Yeah. Or run out of the house, I e. The business work, right? Like all of that. Yes.

00:18:39 - Speaker A No, it's such a good analogy. I like that analogy in particular because I talk a lot about impostor syndrome as it relates to showing up for your people, continually creating content, and there are ways to combat it. Absolutely. But you have to understand it's never going to go away. I don't know anyone who can honestly say they no longer deal with imposter syndrome at all. I was right before this on a call with someone I think is going to end up being a very good friend in the future. I've got a good feeling about that. And she's like, yeah, I'm having one of those weeks where I'm like, I should go back and get a job. And I was like, yeah, I totally had you on this pedestal until you said that for the moment. And it just gave me that reminder we all deal with it. And it's not only okay, we need to be there.

00:19:31 - Speaker B Completely. Yeah. I have not yet had any one of my fears go away. I've learned how to work with them. And the impostor syndrome, each time I meet it, I can move through it in more effective ways, but I don't believe they go away either. And again, back to that smoke detector analogy. I don't believe that we're actually supposed to get rid of the fears because every now and again we actually need it to protect ourselves in a real situation where we need that protection. So we just we want it to become more effective at knowing when the actual survival moments are and when they aren't.

00:20:18 - Speaker A So shifting gears just a little bit here because I'm curious what you're going to say to this in more of a group setting.

00:20:24 - Speaker B Right?

00:20:24 - Speaker A I think you've talked a lot about coaching settings, and it might just be the way I was reading it, but it felt like individual coaching situations, but in more of a group situation, say someone's running a course for a multitude of people and they probably have a good inkling where the fears are going to come up. Maybe they don't. Maybe they get a nice big surprise. But how can someone kind of put these processes that you're talking about into practice in that kind of setting?

00:20:52 - Speaker B Yeah, it's such a great question and we should be thinking about this not just for our one on one work, but also for our group work. So we've spoken about actually a lot of things in a short period of time. So number one, normalizing. Like normalizing from day one in that first call with a group when you're creating inspiration and sharing about who's there and what you're going to accomplish together. Speak to resistance, say, now, this is going to be amazing. And also here's what I know is probably going to come up at some point, usually, if you know what it is, usually around month three or whatever it is, that's when some of those fears are going to start to set in or the impatience or the feeling like it's a lot of work. I want you to know that this is normal impostor syndrome, right? Like whatever it is. So lay it out, bacon speak to the resistance and the fear from the get go. Number one, the more people know that it's normal and the more they know from the get go that it may come up, then they're going to be able to see it for what it is when it does come up and not just eject themselves out of the program or whatever it is. So that's the first thing and normalize throughout. And then, number two, I always recommend to course creators and group leaders to bake this idea, some kind of befriend your fear work into the curriculum of the group itself. So each expert is going to know what are some of the top one or two or three fears that my particular ideal client comes up for them when they go through the course. Fear of visibility, fear of abandonment, fear of other people getting angry because I've raised my rates or I'm reaching out for business, whatever it is, and then actually take the time, the 30 minutes, the 60 minutes to do some inner work with the group at some point in the course that speaks to the fear and supports them to become better friends with the fear.

00:23:14 - Speaker A That is so good. I've been in group programs where there would be like a whole aspect of it that's mindset work. But I like the idea of what you're saying is like, pick a time where, you know, it comes up often and just make that in there. It's not necessarily like a do not pass go, do not collect for $200. It's not that per se, but it's like, hey, we put it here for a reason. So if you're feeling this stuff that already normalizes, just based on the fact that you can tell that it was literally scheduled right there and kind of double whammies right there, which I like. So I think that's so good.

00:23:53 - Speaker B Yeah. And be transparent about the timing, too. I'm a big fan of connecting the dots for people. We're putting this module about beer at this point in the program specifically because after you take that action, whatever the module before was, this is the point of the program where this is probably going to start coming up. So to just really connect those dots for people, it makes all that work even more powerful.

00:24:21 - Speaker A Fantastic. Yeah. Also a fan of connecting dots. And I like telling people specifically, hey, this is where you're at right now. It's going to lead to this. And if that sounds big and scary at the moment, it's okay because you haven't done the first part yet, and I've gotten very good reactions from my audience, whether they're paid or not, when I do those kinds of things. Because I'm acknowledging future fears.

00:24:49 - Speaker B Right.

00:24:49 - Speaker A I'm acknowledging that this will happen normalizing, as you say. But I'm also giving them kind of like that preview, right? We're going to go here and it's okay, we'll go there together.

00:25:01 - Speaker B Yes, exactly. It's like, number one, you're showing them that you see them, that you hear them, that you know them, that acknowledgment. The validation of this is coming up. And then it's like in saying that, you're kind of grabbing their hand and saying, we're going to do this together. I'm holding your hand as we walk through. And there's a process for this.

00:25:24 - Speaker A Joanna, this has been fantastic. I'd like to give you an opportunity here just to kind of tell us a little bit more about Applied Depth Institute. Specifically, I love the name, and I meant to say this earlier, but we were on a different tangent at the time, so I kind of lost it. And that's fine. It's okay. But I think you're normalizing the idea that you're going to go deep in this work. And yes, there will be some fears to address, and yes, we can move past those fears just in your name. I think the name alone gives that kind of container, which I thought I mean, from a branding perspective, I was, like, geeking out a little bit. It was super fun. So I'm going to just say that. But why don't you tell us a little bit more about where people can find you if they're interested in what we were talking about? Great.

00:26:07 - Speaker B Thank you. Probably the best place is my website. It's kind of a long address, but it's applieddeptinstitute.com. And if you go there, got a couple of free gifts. There's a PDF on how to work with shadow. There's a PDF on how to work with resistance. Or you can just sign up for my newsletter. I share articles every week and lots of great content.

00:26:31 - Speaker A Awesome. Well, I'm always a fan of that, obviously. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I know it went a little bit different than I was expecting, but those are my favorite. Those are where I really grow, so thank you.

00:26:44 - Speaker B I agree. I've loved this conversation. Thank you.

00:26:49 - Speaker A All right. Thank you, Joanna. Again, I loved the direction that this conversation went because fear is something we're all going to deal with. And instead of slaying it, as Joe said, there is an approach that's not just friendlier, it's an acknowledgment that we are all there and we are there together. So let's move through it together. And with that, I'll see you next week. If you found value from this episode, there are two things you can do to thank me. The first is share it with a friend. If you enjoyed this episode, you learned something from it. Odds are you know somebody who needs to hear this message. I do truly believe that a rising tide lifts all boats. And if you help that friend with something that they need to do, we're going to have less crappy marketers out there, which means less scams. And we get to help more people in those ways that we uniquely are meant to help them. The second thing you can do is leave a rating on whichever podcast app you are listening to the show on right now. Doing that helps me reach more people, getting again this same great information out there, and we all make a better, happier, effective and ethical world as a result. Thanks so much. See you next week.