Britney Gardner

Hey, hey friends, today we have a treat because I would imagine if you're listening to the show, you have put an offer out into the world. Maybe you put in like three or four offers. And maybe one of them's hit like hit well, you loved delivering the offer your audience and clients loved receiving the offer, people got great results, and now it is time to re launch that offer.

That is why Ameesha Schumacher is on the show today. She's a launch copywriter and a growth revenue consultant. She writes launch copy for digital products and also works as a growth revenue consultant for seven figure clients. And she is all about looking to the data, knowing what parts to pay attention to and how to use that to tweak your message, relaunch in a good way and ultimately deliver a better service to your clients. With that, let's hop into the interview.

Britney Gardner 0:05

All right, Ameesha welcome.

Amisha Shrimanker 0:07

Hey, Brittany, thanks for having me. Of course,

Britney Gardner 0:10

of course. So before we dive into talking a little bit about offer and logistics and making things work for your people and all that fun stuff we're here for. Can you give us a real quick rundown on how you got to be where you are today?

Amisha Shrimanker 0:25

You mean as a copywriter? Yeah. That works. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay, I started my business in 2018. That's kind of when I was I came onto the scene, so to speak, and I was doing other things in the online space, trying to like, you know, maybe, maybe my calling is business coaching, maybe I should do life coaching all the things like, right, we all go through these like different avenues, like, I don't know, what's my thing. And I started reviewing a lot of my peers copy at the time. And you know, they were sending me landing pages or send me emails to look at it, and I kind of liked what I was doing. And I didn't know I could get paid to just right, you know, do that all day long. You know, you it's one of those things. And I had a couple of my own funnels running in my business. And I would always notice that people would buy every time I would send out an email, and that kind of like made me really happy. And I was like, oh, I should do more of this thing. So long story short, enrolled into Copy Hackers, when, you know, went through all their programs did everything. And I really discovered a love for writing copy. And I'm like, oh, you know what, I think I found my thing. This was 2018. And I officially launched my copywriting business back then looks very different from what it is today. And yeah, I am entering my fourth year in business, my offers look different. So you know, I'm a, I have a company called the copy crew. And we're a small team. And we work with online course creators, membership site owners and high ticket coaches. And there's a done for you cite agency side, I offer coaching as well, to copywriters, and I am, you know now getting into consulting as well. So, yeah, three different ways to work with me.

Britney Gardner 2:00

I love that. And I just want to make a note of something you said in there, you just kind of slid in, you're like, and it looks very different than it did when I first started this. And I think for most of us, that's kind of you know, how the whole thing goes, I think, you know, a brick and mortar business, if you start as like a plant shop, you're probably going to kind of stay as a plant shot. But when we're online, you know, it really only takes just a few, you know, rewards on your own homepage or your sales page, and you can kind of change who you're serving or change the tenor of your offer fairly easily.

Amisha Shrimanker 2:34

Yeah, no, totally. And, you know, we're creators, we're visionaries, we can just keep doing one thing for too long. I mean, I don't know about you, but I know I kind of get bored. And I'm like, Alright, what's the next thing I need to kind of like, think of a new offer and see if this sticks? And if I like it, right? Because there's two parts like I have I got people buying it, and do I enjoy delivering it. So it's got to, it's gotta be both ways, there's got to be a product fit. And in this case, creator product and market fit, to make this whole thing, you know, dance, so

Britney Gardner 3:05

and I think that's a huge thing, right? So you can be good at something and not enjoy doing it. And you can be good at something and really enjoy doing it. And people might not stop by it. You know, it's like, as a, as a business owner, you have to make a business type decision on some of those things at times. But if you really despise doing it, you're not going to stick around for probably not even the short haul, but definitely not for the long haul. Oh,

Amisha Shrimanker 3:31

yeah, some offers die an untimely death in like that, yeah, let's let's put this you know, one of those things, file it under, never ever going to do this again. So yeah, it does happen.

Britney Gardner 3:42

So so, you know, on the flip side, you know, maybe something that you do want to make happen again, we're gonna be talking a little bit about, you know, a secondary launch a third launch a fourth launch here. Let's assume that your offer did sell in the first round, but maybe you want to make some tweaks, or maybe it didn't sell as well as you'd hoped. But it did sell you know, it is a validated offer, like what what are we looking at here?

Amisha Shrimanker 4:09

Yeah, that's a great question. So when you are, say you have an offer that worked, okay, that's one of the first things like did the offer work? Is it a proven? You know, do we have proof of concept here, which is great. And you know, that's what I helped with most of my clients, like, you know, they come to me and they're like, Hey, we did the scrappy first launch and work we sold. Now what All right great, let's take a look at your offer. And let's optimize it that's where I start with most of my launch copy clients. Like let's just take a look at your offer, what worked what didn't and you know, a lot of copywriters, digital marketers, you know this term you understand it as launch debrief. We take a look at that, but this is a little bit it's more there's there's definitely more than just doing a launch debrief. You kind of like take a look at it and say let's just optimize the entire offer. So the way I look at it as I work with a market researcher, she was you know, On your podcast, Melissa Hartstein and I hire her and she would go in to do these interviews. So you know, she would talk to students who have been through the program through the offer, she would talk to people who did not buy if he or you know, so kind enough to get those responses because those are harder to schedule. Like, you know, when you have clients who went through the entire promotion, sat through it, but did not buy, but they're still hanging out on the creators list, the clients email list, well, hey, would you just, you know, give us a few sound bites. So current students, people who did not buy and then obviously there are surveys, right, so there's voc data, voc, meaning voice of customer interviews, and, and surveys, we look at all of this three different sources of information. And I'm looking at to see especially when it comes to student surveys, I'm looking to see, hey, did they complete the program? What are their completion rates look like? You know, specific feedback on the course, like the teaching style, how easy was it to find all the content? Was it too much or too little? Did it meet their expectations? Wherever they are in your journey? You know, what were their wins? What were their outcomes? The duration of the course, the Course Platform itself, sometimes people tell me like I hate and you know, I'm just giving an example here. I'm not saying I'm not dissing on the platform. Kajabi like, Oh, my God, I Hades wonky, and I can't find things. Example, you know, the student support how well was a student supported? If it's, especially if it's a course, or a group coaching program? I mean, was there enough support like the weather officer, so we look at all these different things, just to kind of understand what can be optimized and what can't be? And I always want to answer two questions when I'm looking at offer optimization, can we, you know, the goal is to essentially improve the student experience and their outcomes, right? Because that's what we are in service for, especially in the online world. I mean, are we improving their life in some sort of way? Do we need to add something to the offer to improve that take it up a notch? Or do we need to even remove something because it's, you know, our students are, like, dying under so much content? And that does happen, right? We have like, these really enthusiastic clients, like, oh, I want to give them this, and I want to give them that and throw this and, you know, maybe not everybody needs that you kind of need to like, take it down a notch, like, remove content, it's okay, remove a few bonuses lately. You know, they're like, gasping like, what? I'm like, No, really, they don't need 10 different bonuses to make this work. And if that's the case, and I would seriously want to look at your offer, like what is going on?

Britney Gardner 7:25

So yeah, they probably didn't buy for the bonuses anyway. I mean, I know that's why people originally started adding bonuses into into offers to tip people over when they were like, on the cusp, but but I think you make a really good point. If it's not necessary, why didn't you include it in the main offer?

Amisha Shrimanker 7:42

Exactly. Right. I mean, yeah, that's the thing. So bonuses need to be in 10 fold, too. So you know, we kind of like, take everything and look at everything. And then once we get all this data, we're like, okay, what can we does the program offer need to be tweaked? Do we need to, you know, reduce the content, like, if it's a six month coaching program, my gosh, people aren't finishing, it's overwhelming, they're not sticking around, they're definitely not completing? Do we need to have like a bootcamp sort of version, and kind of like get people enrolled in that way, maybe it's a shorter, you know, duration, a different price point. So there are all these different things when you kind of look at offer optimization, when you're going in for your relaunch, because you have so much more data now that it's out there. It's a living, breathing thing. You're like, Alright, how can I tweak this to kind of like, better serve my audiences, basically. So that's, that's, that's just step one. That's one thing, there's so many other ways we can kind of take this to another notch.

Britney Gardner 8:36

So when you say that, right, so I'm going to pose a, an all, you know, a scenario, let's say, okay, so you have a program, it's like a hybrid, like course, and group support program. And, you know, one of the pieces of feedback you're getting from people why they're not finishing the program, is that the support calls are not at a good time for them. So So what do you do with that, like, let's say, and I'm just giving my own situation here, you know, if I were to offer group calls in a program right now, there'll be very carefully picked, I have a really tight schedule, so they'd be picked, largely based on my ability to show up. So you know, What would someone would do with that info? Is that something we're like, okay, if they're not working? Do we look at different ways to offer that support? So people can move through the program? Or do we change it from group calls to something else? Since the group calls aren't working? Like, how do we parse through the different pieces of information to make it an offer that works for the the audience for the offer, but also something that doesn't become? Like we said at the beginning, kind of that chore that you don't really want to do in your business?

Amisha Shrimanker 9:36

Yeah, that's a great question. So would you say that the group calls are not effective or they are effective, but we're just not getting people to show up?

Britney Gardner 9:45

Well, this isn't, you know, this is a made up scenario. So let's let's go with people aren't showing up.

Amisha Shrimanker 9:50

Alright, people aren't showing up. So one of the things like I've had this because I've run a group coaching program as well. I don't get and this is the reason for that is because my students are are not just in North America, they're all over the world. So we have students in Australia, students in India, I have somebody from Africa. So they are definitely not showing up at that particular time zone. So one of the things I like to do and because I mean, I can do this because I have a very smaller cohort, like every time we launch and we get like, you know, 1020 people on the onboarding survey, I would ask them, like, Hey, what is your time zone just to get a sense of like, who's coming in, and, you know, you know where they are. And that is a time when that works. And then I kind of like, look at the data and say, like, Okay, we've got a split, 50% of these people are in North America, and 50% are there. So I kind of like very, one thing I do is just to give everybody an equal opportunity to show up, like, Hey, we're running some of the calls in the program, they're going to be at 12, a 12pm. Eastern, whoever is in North America kind of can make it maybe, or maybe not, and then some of the calls in the program around like, you know, at a time, there's never going to be one thing that everyone's going to agree upon. But something like more of an evening time. Yes, it's a little inconvenient for me, but I think that's okay, for you know, I'm okay to do that, just so I can be of service to the remaining people in the cohort, like, Hey, I'm so glad you did this, because then I can show up late to the call. So that's one way to kind of like, you know, encourage, maybe show up, you know, call show up times and stuff like that. The other thing is, there's always that comfort that, you know, these calls are recorded. So that's one thing. And they have, they can go back. If you have the bandwidth of having a support coach in your program. I mean, I don't do this, but I you know, if somebody if you're running a much bigger coaching program, and if you have like another coach who can kind of like, Hey, let me just reach out one on one to see where people are kind of like that accountability support coach, like, Hey, what's going on? Where are you stuck? Is there anything that we can do? That's just an extra level, an extra layer of human touch? That you can add to program? Maybe? Or you can do this yourself? I did that I do. I still do that from my group coaching programs, like we have a Slack channel. That's another thing that I like, because taking take the conversations off Facebook and kind of keep it more intimate there, people are not distracted. I just reach out to them, like, you know, every now and then like, Hey, how are you doing? I noticed you haven't been coming up to the calls. And that's okay. Is there anything that I can help you with and maybe even doing a video Ask and You know, people like to see that personal touch outside of just the program, like send them an email, like, hey, a video asked like, what's going on? Can you give me feedback? What can I help you with? So these are these little touches that you can add? So those have worked? And, yeah, it's just a testing thing, too.

Britney Gardner 12:35

I like that, because you're acknowledging that something wasn't working in a previous lunch in a previous effort, figuring out ways to do it, but not necessarily having to change everything works for for you still offering support to people, like I love the personal reach out in particular, but not being like, Oh, I have to change everything because it wasn't working and

Amisha Shrimanker 12:56

right. Yeah, you still want to, like honor your own boundaries, right? Like, this is what I can do. And especially, that's just one piece of data, like look at overall, if you're delivering results, and people are getting wins. And they are making the ROI, like, especially if you're teaching something like money related, like I'm going to teach you this skill, so you can make money. And I'm speaking from personal experience, even if they don't show up to the calls they are because I'm in touch with them one on one through DMS or other ways they are letting me know like, Hey, thank you so much I appreciate you're checking in. This is how much I've covered. And I've already got a client and I'm like, super, doesn't matter if you don't show up for the call. You're already getting your win. So it's important to keep that connection going. Yeah, very good. Cool.

Britney Gardner 13:39

Okay, so So we've talked about looking at different things in the offer different areas where you could see results not really see results. How do we look through all that data? I mean, I'm a data person, I am like, big into measuring things. But what would we be looking for, in particular,

Amisha Shrimanker 14:00

when it comes to improving the offer? Yeah. Okay. So one of the things that you want to look at is when I have all this, and I'm going back to my program, looking at the sales page, and looking at the copy and looking at the offer, I want to make sure few questions I want to really get, you know, very specific, because I'm going to be using that in my marketing. Is my big promise still clear? Like the promise I started when I first did this beta launch? Is it still the same? After I've gone through one round or even two rounds of this program? Like, does my promise need to be tweaking? Does it be more to be more specific than it was right? I could make changes to that. And you know, promises can vary right between your first and maybe your 10th launch? Do I need to kind of improve my risk reversal? The guarantee right before like so here's the thing. I'll give you an example one of the clients who sales pages that I audited, she had a three month program and her guarantee was 14 days. days, and I kind of like this something that I would make a recommendation to clients like, hey, great program, one of your core things, the core outcome, the promise of the program was for someone to get a PR opportunity, and I'm like, but they're not going to be looking into if they can get a PR opportunity until they get to module two, which is month two. And you're kind of like giving them the chance to like, you know, you know, giving them the money back, the refund guarantee is like a 14 day, it just doesn't make sense. And it's a bit of a risk thing, like, can you extend it to at least 30 days, because by then they will at least know how to send one of their first PR pitches, and then let them decide like this is Is this even worth it, but to kind of like, you know, take away that chance from them. Like I haven't even tried, I don't even know if this is worth Right. So there's one thing you can extend the length of your guarantee, like I guarantee you within 60 days, even after the program is done. And this is a little bit of a risk. And this is how well you have that positioning in the marketplace, and how well is you know, strong your offers, and you've got lot of results, even if you can like extend the guarantee after the program is over. That's the that's a real badass move in some creators. Some clients can do that. And not not everybody, but I would look at one of those things that can you extend the guarantee link? The other thing is, what else can we do here? Yeah, is there a gap between what the students are expecting and what previous offers have delivered? So you may start out with a starter program starter course, like a boot camp level offer like, Hey, we're gonna meet for four weeks, I'm going to make sure you get this one win one prop run program promise one win. Excellent. When you relaunch Can you kind of like add a tier two to your offer? Like, you know, Tier One was, I'll give you an example. With my coaching program, I have a program called the audit superstar. So my tier one when I when we did the second time launch was you get in, and I'll help you audit sales pages. And if you learn this one skill, you will you will have mastered it, you will be able to confidently offer this service and you'll make your money back in the program. That was great. Some people got in just because they want to learn that one skill for the people who want to do more than just looking at sales pages. I'm like, Alright, tier two is where you're going to learn a whole lot more not just sales pages, you're going to you know, you you'll know how to audit digital courses, you'll know how to audit email sequences, you'll know how to audit webinar funnels, it's a whole nother thing. And yes, we attracted people in that too. So and of course, once they're in tier one, you still want to keep that relationship going within the students, you know, the students in the program like, hey, awesome, your success, you've successfully sold an audit, do you still want to kind of like upgrade and go to tier two? So that's another way to get, you know, have that conversation going. But yeah, it's just like, you know, mixing it up with the offer and doing testing different things and seeing like, Hey, did this work? Did this not work? Like? Should I just not offer tier two anymore? And just like have that as a, you know, upsell, once they're in tier one and not talk about in my next launch? You can do that as well. So there's always something to learn. Does that kind of like help answer the question a bit?

Britney Gardner 18:09

Yeah, I love that you gave really concrete options for for kind of, you know, judging the offer choice. And I really appreciate how you called out the guarantee. I feel like a lot of sales pages out there. Do they offer like that 15 day guarantee on a six month program. And you're like, Yeah, I've barely read through the welcome material at that point. I don't know if this is good. And a particular pet peeve of mine is, you know, guarantees that aren't really a guarantee. It's like the guarantee. Like if you submit to me all the coursework that you have done proving that you didn't just sit there, we'll give you a refund. And I'm like, well, there are other reasons, the program might not be a good fit for someone outside of the coursework, right. And I think if you're really confident in your offer, if you've if you've got, you know, the stuff to back it up, as you were saying, you have the power to offer a little bit more than that, and, you know, extend some trust that you're asking people to give to you back towards them as well. Yeah,

Amisha Shrimanker 19:11

I mean, you're always going to have people who will go for that, right, like, I want my money back and there's always going to be that kind of clientele coming in and to you know, I say like, alright, alright, good riddance, and, you know, I wish you well, if, you know, they really came in with those negative intentions. But then there's sometimes like you said, there are genuine cases where they just can't, you know, continue with the program. I'm like, you know, I understand and that that's okay. And I think, I don't know, I think it was remede Sadie, I don't remember the exact number. But he said, if you're not getting refunds issued, then you're just not playing a big enough game or something like that. You know, you've got to be still bold with your marketing bold with your promise, like, you know, in fact, like you're saying, I said that but you just told me again that you know, you've you've just got to be confident in offering what you can offer and back it up. and see what happens.

Britney Gardner 20:03

So when speaking to that confidence piece, right, so we're talking about, you know, things we can do to relaunch and offer. So some of this is what I'm about to ask is a little more like first offer, you know, pre validation. But you know, when someone has a good offer, it's pretty easy to confidently re launch and you know, that you're gonna be tweaking some things along the way, there's always small percentage gains that you can make. But when somebody is offering something new, it's a little bit harder to have that confidence. And this is, you know, to that guarantee, right? Like, is there a specific thing that you recommend to people on that first round versus the second?

Amisha Shrimanker 20:45

If you're launching something for the first time, one specific thing I will advise is, do this as a, think of it as a startup program, or think of it as a starter course. Like, you know, don't launch a six month program, if you've never launched a program before, or you've never got somebody the results, kind of go conservative, do a four week boot camp, or an accelerator or, you know, six weeks or something small, just to like, you know, get them that first quick win. But if you're, you know, with a six month program, you know, those quick wins are very hard to come by. So my advice is, like, if you're starting something for the first time, you're launching something for the first time, keep it small, go all in with your promise, do it as a starting thing. Like, hey, we're going to do this together. It's a boot camp, like when I launched my program, the first time, I call it the boot camp, I was like, this is a four week boot camp with one thing and one thing only you're going to learn how to audit sales pages. That was my promise. And you know, if you'd like it at this point, you know, great come along with for the right, because I'm going to be delivering this content live. And that was it. So I kept it small. The second time I launched I was like, alright, you have an option. Like I said, Tier one is four weeks, and we're done. tier two, in total is an eight week program. So I kind of went like a little I was a little bolder. I was like, Alright, I've successfully delivered a four week, I think I can do another four weeks and teach them all the other things that I have. So yeah, start small, go all big on one promise, make sure your program can deliver that one, you know, a couple of quick wins early. Because when they see that, and they see that confidence, you know, they feel like oh, man, I can do this. With smaller programs. It's easier to manufacture, not manufacture deliver those quick wins for the clients.

Britney Gardner 22:35

Yeah, like that. Um, that's really great. I love the the tier one and tier two idea, right? So I've heard so many people talk about like offer levels, right, like you have your entry level offer or you have your mid level and all that stuff. Your entry level offer doesn't have to be like, a little tiny, you know, ebook online, your entry level offer doesn't have to be like you're calling out, you're like, hey, we can have like a four week bootcamp that may get really dicey and give us those quick wins and introduces them straight away into that tier two thing, which doesn't have to be you know, something that goes from four weeks to a year you can still have a nice progression there. Right? I think the the the teaching on how to handle some of these things is a little bit confusing for people and it doesn't it doesn't remind people and it doesn't reintroduce people to the idea that you are literally just helping people with one problem and then another problem and then Alas,

Amisha Shrimanker 23:33

I like to go back to the rule of one in direct response marketing copywriting keep, it's I mean, it's on keep it simple, but it's really one offer. One promise, one outcome, one big idea, let's just stick to that. And you'll be fine for the first program that you launch. And yeah, sometimes you kind of like get blindsided and you like lose the vein, like, oh, I want to do a certification and i Those are all good, great offers, but it's really developed over like tons of one on one coaching or like, you know, offering like, multiple iterations of your one program and kind of like, you know, being so perfected in your delivery and the promises and the outcomes. That's when you're like, alright, I can think of launching a year long mastermind because that's when you want to get to that level. But when you starting out, yeah, let's just keep it simple and just kind of like, you know, really iterate the heck out of this, improve it and all the things perfect.

Britney Gardner 24:28

So before we close up if there was one thing you wanted people to pay attention to or remember, when they're talking about relaunching an offer, what would it be?

Amisha Shrimanker 24:42

I would say take a look at your data. Take a look at and I know generic and is like you know obvious as it sounds, but like any relaunch, just go back to what your people have, you know, to tell you, their you know, keep your ear to the ground kind of thing like listen to what they're saying in the program. itself while you're having those conversations like even if you're in you know, Midway, do a midway check with the people in your program like attitude week point, like, send an email with a video ask like, Hey, how's it going? What feedback do you have to give me? Or if it's an eight week program? You know, yeah, a week point, week four, midway through programs, send them that email saying like, Hey, I'm just checking in, where are you at with this? What would you like to see improved? Like, how can I help you collect all that data and make sure the data, you're always collecting that information? And then go back and see like, Alright, where are my people getting stuck? Where are they, you know, where are they experiencing their quick wins, like, oh, 80% of my people are experiencing quick wins around week two, that is something that I could talk about, not just in my marketing, but I need to kind of like, bring that up and blow it up in my content as well. As I'm looking at this, you know, this data, so, yeah, data, data data. You're a data nerd, Britney.

Britney Gardner 25:52

You're seeing it, you're singing my,

Amisha Shrimanker 25:54

I have heard your episodes, and I'm like, Okay, I like her already. And I'm a data nerd. So I think your people are your best source of information you hear from them, take that and then kind of like, you know, go and beef up your offer or however you want to do it or your marketing or messaging.

Britney Gardner 26:10

Perfect. Well, Ameesha where can people find you if they are interested in finding out more about what you've been talking about here? If they're interested in learning more about coffee in general?

Amisha Shrimanker 26:20

Yeah, well, easiest is my website, the coffee crew.com I so hangout on Instagram, same handle at the coffee crew. And yeah, these are two places where you can find me and yeah, and

Britney Gardner 26:35

well, thank you so much.

Amisha Shrimanker 26:37

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Britney Gardner

All right, you guys know that Ameesha was speaking to my little data loving heart. I love how much we talked about that, but also how to use it. I mean, knowing how to ask the right questions of your numbers is the whole point of having your numbers in the first place. Otherwise, it's just more details to bog you down, right? When we're talking about relaunching and optimizing offers, we can't talk about it without talking about data. But I love how well Misha called out the different things we should be looking at what that data can tell us and how we can make it better for our people, ultimately delivering a better product delivering better on our big promise to them and making sure that more people get the results that they were paying for in the first place. So if you enjoyed this episode, do us a solid, go ahead and rate and review this on Apple podcasts. Five stars are preferred. And if you have listened to more than one episode, but you like one better than the other, please tell me that helps me create and deliver better content for you. See you guys next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai