Britney Gardner [00:00:03]: All right, Julia. Welcome to the no like and trust show.

Julia Bocchese [00:00:06]: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Britney Gardner [00:00:08]: I'm really interested in our talk today, and like most of the guests that come onto the no like and Trust show, there's always a little bit of something in it for me because I generally find that when I feel like I know something, but I don't know enough of it. As it turns out, everyone else kind of generally feels the same way. And I love the opportunity to share guests like you because we can't know everything. And most of my clients, at least, I know for a fact most of the listeners are people who don't necessarily have the resources to hire an expert for every different kind of field that they are looking at, but we're still marketing our businesses. So with that, I'd love to hear just a little bit about how you grew and where you gained your skill set.

Julia Bocchese [00:00:55]: Yeah, so right now I get most of my sales from probably Google referral and then, strangely enough, Instagram SEO. So it's not people who follow me on Instagram, but they'll, I guess, go to Instagram and either search for a hashtag or some keywords and find my profile and then reach out that way. I'm not big on Instagram, but I know now that I need to be active enough to kind of show up in these searches. So that's mostly where I get most of my sales for Pinterest, that's where I get most of my email subscribers. So we'll probably talk about different ways you can use Pinterest in this conversation, but for Pinterest, that's kind of what I focus on, is growing my email list that way.

Britney Gardner [00:01:36]: I love that because I think you just acknowledged two very key things that a lot of people conveniently like to forget, even though I think we most of us deep down know, which is that you're not going to get all your leads in the same way. There are multiple different traffic channels that you probably want to, at the very least, acknowledge, if not really nurture, and also that you do have to show up in order to keep that nurturing going. So thanks for playing right into my hand on that one.

Julia Bocchese [00:02:06]: That was good.

Britney Gardner [00:02:07]: But SEO is one of those things that I think at the bare bones, most of us get right. Like, you enter a search term. So if you want to rank for that search term, you have to put content out there for that. But I think beyond that basic, a lot of people just get really overwhelmed, not even necessarily confused, although I know that some of the technical aspects can be confusing, but I just think it's overwhelming. Well, how do I know about this? How do I know where to do that? So from the Pinterest side of things, I think a lot of us have probably seen, oh, you can pick up good keyword ideas. If you go to the search bar and just start typing, they'll pop up with some ideas. But beyond that kind of basic thing, what do you recommend for people who want to do what you're doing, which is building an email list off of Pinterest?

Julia Bocchese [00:02:52]: Yeah, so the good news with Pinterest SEO is that it's way more basic than like, Google SEO, because with Google, there are over 200 different ranking factors. With Pinterest, it really comes down to your keywords. So like you said, you can just go to Pinterest and start typing things in, and Pinterest will auto populate with what other people have searched before. So that way you're not just trying to target a huge keyword like marketing. You can get really specific on social media marketing for interior designers or something like that, so you can see what other people have been searching. It won't give you the exact numbers of monthly searches or things like that, like Google SEO keyword tools do, but it's kind of like a good starting place. They do have a keyword research tool called Pinterest Trends. They introduced this, I think, about two years ago. They're still adding data to it. So they don't have data for every single industry on there yet. They don't have a lot of data for when I'm searching for SEO keywords on there. So don't be discouraged if you don't see any data for topics that you write about. That doesn't mean that no one's searching for it on Pinterest. It just means they don't have the data there yet. So that's a good place to kind of start. You can compare. They won't break down monthly searches, but they'll kind of give you the overall data trends for different keywords. And you can kind of compare to see how different keywords perform in different seasons. Because Pinterest is pretty seasonal for a lot of businesses, summer is usually pretty big for Pinterest. It kind of goes down around the holidays, unless you have a lot of holiday content, but that's just one thing to be aware of. So you do want to make sure that you get your content up on Pinterest, like ahead of the most popular season for whatever keyword term you're searching on Pinterest. On the desktop, they do have an app, but on the desktop, when you are searching for different keywords, they will also have these little bubbles at the top with different phrases that people have used related to your search. So that's another way to kind of find out these related searches, get more ideas for content and things like that. So in terms of growing your email list, I do recommend having some sort of email freebie. You don't want to just have a page that says, sign up for my newsletter, because especially for people who don't know anything about you, they likely aren't very interested. Pin just signing up for newsletter that they know nothing about. So make sure you have some sort of freebie or something that you have to incentivize people to sign up for your email list. I also recommend having a landing page on your website that has the email list sign up embedded on it. So instead of just like linking to your home page where you have maybe like a banner or a pop up, you have an actual page. That way you can track the data to see how many people are actually going from Pinterest or from another platform to this page. You can also track to see how many people are going to this page versus signing up. So if a lot of people are going to the page, but then they're not signing up, then there might be an issue with the email sign up, or there might just be something that isn't translating between how you're marketing your freebie and then what your freebie actually is. So that was a lot of information.

Britney Gardner [00:06:03]: No, that's good, I like that. And obviously anyone listening who was like, oh, lots, they can go back and take notes if they need to. So I think that's always a good thing. But one of the things you said there, I just want to clarify because I think I heard it, but I heard you say that you should have a separate landing page for just your Pinterest leads. Is that what you said?

Julia Bocchese [00:06:22]: Just your email sign up? So like, if you have a freebie have landing page where people can go to sign up for that.

Britney Gardner [00:06:28]: So it's not specific to people coming from Pinterest, it's just for your freebie sign up?

Julia Bocchese [00:06:33]: Yeah, I mean you can have one specifically for Pinterest or you can set up like UTM codes if you want to get really?

Britney Gardner [00:06:40]: Yeah. Yes. Well, I'm all about so a Facebook ads person I was talking to a while back, this is two, three years ago, she had recommended that you actually create separate funnels that you direct your Facebook ads to versus the same funnel that you would send, for example, Pinterest or your email list to. Because with attribution on Facebook ads it's so difficult to prove, was this actually a Facebook ads customer or was it not a Facebook ads customer? And I was like, oh, are you suggesting the same thing? But I think now you're saying, no, you don't need to do that.

Julia Bocchese [00:07:12]: You don't need to. You definitely can if you want to. If you want to get really technical with Data and Google Analytics, you can set up goals to see how many people are visiting different pages from different platforms. But also in Pinterest they have their own analytics system, so you can see how much traffic a particular Pin is getting. So if you have a Pin for this freebie, and you're seeing that it gets ten visits, that way you know ten people from Pinterest are going to your email list and hopefully signing up.

Britney Gardner [00:07:42]: So when we're looking at setting up a Pin for your email list freebie, right? What are the kind of numbers that you generally look at? Do you want five different Pins? Do you want one pin but then reposting it once a month? I think that's where the people I know at least start feeling like they're in the weeds. They're like, Well, I did this, and this one Pin is not doing, so maybe I should do another one. But then other people say, don't send multiple Pins to the same URL. So it's always like, what's the best idea here?

Julia Bocchese [00:08:11]: Yeah, it really varies depending on how much content you have. So if you have been blogging for ten years and you have a ton of content, then I recommend kind of focusing on just creating one pin for blog posts just so you can kind of get that content going on Pinterest and see what performs the best for you. If you're just starting out and you just have like five blog posts or five freebies whatever you're pinning on Pinterest, then I do recommend creating some more graphics because you do need to be pinning at least once a day on Pinterest. A couple of times a day is recommended, but if you can just do once a day on Pinterest just to start with, that's something. You don't want to put out ten Pins on Pinterest, not show up for a month, put out another ten. That's not really going to serve you. So definitely make sure that you have enough content to be able to pin at least once a day on Pinterest. You can also repin older content that you want to kind of give a boost. So this doesn't mean you have to create like 30 brand new Pin every single month. You can kind of repin that older content as well. And you can also create templates like in Canva or something like that. So that way you're not creating Pins completely from scratch every single time.

Britney Gardner [00:09:21]: So I have at least for the last two years, or know every podcast episode or blog post that I've created. I keep all the things that I pinned from ages ago in the folder with that podcast, like in the artwork folder. So what you're saying is I could go and pick out a blog post from, say, a year ago and repin that content and that's okay?

Julia Bocchese [00:09:42]: Oh, yeah, the rules on Pinterest have kind of like, shifted, but you can definitely repin content. You can even just go to Pinterest, find your Pin, and then literally repin it or schedule it out or something like that. You don't have to create it from scratch every single time.

Britney Gardner [00:10:00]: Well, that makes things sound far more easy than some of the other platforms that we talk about up here. No, I love that because repurposing is always a boom when we're talking about content and keeping things fresh. But I do have some really good content from a year, two, sometimes even three or four years ago. And sometimes I surprise myself, like it'll show up in my Facebook or my Instagram memories, and I'm like, oh, that needs more eyes. So this is a great way to do that.

Julia Bocchese [00:10:23]: And Pinterest is also great for kind of like long term traffic. So something that you Pin today, you can still get traffic from Pin six months to a year or something like that. So it's not like Facebook or Instagram where you stop seeing that content after like 24 hours or whatever it is now.

Britney Gardner [00:10:39]: Yeah, it's one of the reasons why I like Pinterest, because if you put that much time and effort into something, it's kind of sad when it just dies a slow death.

Julia Bocchese [00:10:48]: Yes.

Britney Gardner [00:10:49]: Okay, so I have again, speaking for my own case use, since that's what I know best. Right. I have pens for basically all the content I've done over the last couple of years. Obviously, I can go back beyond that and add those pins in. That's not a problem. But what about pins that I know? The content that they're going to is really good. It's some of my favorite, but they just haven't done much. Is there anything I should be looking at specifically for those things to either fix them or redo them in a better way?

Julia Bocchese [00:11:18]: Yeah, so you can definitely create a new graphic because it could have been something like so Pinterest AI is getting a lot smarter at reading the text on the graphic. So it could have been when you posted this two years ago or something, pinterest AI had a hard time reading whatever font it was, or the size of font, something like that, or maybe there wasn't enough contrast between the background and the text. So Pinterest had a hard time reading it, and users may have had a hard time reading it. So if you're going to create a new graphic, make sure everything on it is very clear, easy to read. Don't use ten different script fonts, please.

Britney Gardner [00:11:53]: For many other reasons too, especially as.

Julia Bocchese [00:11:56]: More people on Pinterest are using their phones now rather than using Pinterest on their desktop. So you need to make sure everything is easy to read on a small screen and then kind of going back to the keywords once you have a particular keyword that you're trying to target on a Pin. So if it's podcast on Pinterest SEO, we'll just go with that example. Make sure that know somewhere on the text itself on the Pin, because Pinterest AI will read that and categorize it as one of the keywords that you're trying to target. So if you just say podcast and then you have a Pinterest image or something like that on it, that doesn't give Pinterest enough information to know what that Pin is about. So make sure within the text on the graphic you are saying the keyword also in the title of the Pin and the description, you want to make sure you're using that keyword or variations of that keyword in the description. You also want to make sure that you're using complete sentences. Don't just list out 20 different keywords separated by commas or something like that, because that does look spammy to Pinterest. And then also, any people who open that Pin, they will see that, and that can look really sketchy. Make them not want to visit your website. So the more information that you are able to kind of detail in that description, just like a little summary of your blog post or description of your freebie, something like that, it doesn't need to be crazy long or anything. Just make sure you're writing like a human, because you are trying to reach.

Britney Gardner [00:13:21]: Humans on Pinterest in terms of choosing keywords, right? So you're saying the text we have on the graphic can be read so long as we're doing it in a clear and legible way. Should we be matching the text on the graphic with the title of the Pin, or are they not expecting us to do it that closely?

Julia Bocchese [00:13:38]: No, it doesn't have to match completely, so you can definitely switch it up. Or if you have, like, a short title on the Pin, because you don't want to have a super long title and have the text really small, you can have a longer title in the Pin title itself.

Britney Gardner [00:13:52]: Okay, I like that I don't have to make a match. I always feel like when you're doing SEO for websites, right, like, you have to have the keyword here, you have to have the keyword there. Oh, you didn't mention the keyword in the meta title. And it takes all the joy out of it. It takes all the fun out of the thing that you just created. And I feel like Pinterest, for me, at least, correct me if I'm wrong, it is okay to disagree, but I feel like Pinterest still lets me kind of have that creativity, at least to a certain extent, because I can do what I think people actually want to hear and not feel so tied to keywords and so tied to that search capability while still getting the benefit of it.

Julia Bocchese [00:14:26]: Oh, yeah, definitely. And I mean, that's actually exactly why I do both Google SEO and Pinterest. Pin my business, because, like you said, SEO is very technical and has more of a formula, and then Pinterest lets you be a lot more creative. So it's nice to kind of having that balance in my day.

Britney Gardner [00:14:43]: All right, since you see so many people and so many different businesses doing this, I'd love to ask if it's okay, what's like, the biggest thing you see? And you're like, no, don't do that. If you could just step in and fix things for people, what's the big annoyance you see?

Julia Bocchese [00:14:59]: So on Pinterest and Stephanie, the Pin images, I have seen pins that use like ten different fonts in five different neon colors and it makes my eyes hurt. So I can't imagine someone is taking the time to stare at that pin and try to figure out what it says in order to visit the website. So if people can't read it immediately, they're not going to click on that pin. So making things super easy to read, make sure the text is big enough. That's another thing I see mostly is the text is really small, where it might look okay on desktop, but on your mobile you can't read it on your app unless you really zoom in. And that's a big reason why people aren't getting a lot of traffic on Pinterest. If people can't read their pins, they're not going to click on it. So make sure everything is super easy to read, both for Pinterest AI but also for people. You actually want to visit your website.

Britney Gardner [00:15:52]: When you're talking about that, right? It's really easy to make your graphic on Canva or wherever people are making it. And Canva has a tendency, at least my Canva does, to introduce all text really small. And then, of course, I'm like, I know that it's really easy to think, well, I want to include all of this on there. So do you have kind of a rule of thumb, if you will, when creating Pinterest graphics? They have to be at least a certain point size or they have to take up at least a certain percentage of the field or what are you trying to do on your own?

Julia Bocchese [00:16:27]: It really varies depending on the font. I'll say. I was doing some Pin design earlier today and I think most of the text was like at least 45 to 60. So pretty big. You can also play around with it and get creative, have the most important text as the biggest, and then if you have a longer title, you can make the rest of the text smaller, but just have something that can stand out, catch someone's attention, and is related to what they're searching for. So you can kind of have a few different font sizes. I mean, don't go crazy and have super small and then Ginormous text, but you can kind of have some different text sizes. If it's a longer title. You can also test out different pin designs. So if you have a pin or a blog post or something that has a really long title and you want to kind of do a shorter title on one pin and see how that performs and then do a longer title on a different pin, you can definitely test things out and see what performs the best for your audience.

Britney Gardner [00:17:25]: That's a good point. So when you're testing, are you testing obviously you can post several times a day. Are you testing them all in the same time period? Are you spreading it out? How are you measuring all that. Yeah.

Julia Bocchese [00:17:36]: So I definitely recommend spreading them out by at least like a week, usually a couple of weeks. You don't want to have the same blog post pinned ten times in a day or something like that. You definitely want to make sure you're putting a few different pieces of content out within a week or so. So if you have one blog post and you've created five different graphics for it, spread them out between a few weeks each, so that way they're each getting the attention that you're not, like, competing by having the same blog post. Multiple Pins go out in the same day.

Britney Gardner [00:18:10]: All right, so I know I've thrown a ton of questions at you right after I promised I don't throw tons of questions at people, but I am curious. So, like I said, every week I have a new podcast or blog post, sometimes both. And I'm pretty good at getting at least a few Pins out for each one of them. And some of them, I just feel like, well, it would be lovely if that one would have even one click on it. And I go back and I look at it and I'm like, they all look the same to me. They all have similar enough messaging keywords colors. It's not like one of them committed the cardinal sin of ten fonts or ugly color combinations. Right. Is there any I won't say algorithmic secrets, because obviously Pinterest wouldn't tell all of us what the secrets are. But are there any big things that I might be missing and therefore audience members might be missing as well that are like, no, that one didn't perform well because of this? Or is it really just luck of the draw?

Julia Bocchese [00:19:06]: Yeah, it totally depends. It could be luck of the draw, it could be the season that you're posting something. It could also be related to the boards that you're pinning things to. So another thing with Pinterest SEO is making sure that your boards are optimized. So having incorporating keywords in the title and in the board description, again, it can be kind of the similar formula that you're using for your Pins, having a title that has a keyword in it, and then kind of like having a short summary of what is going to be pinned to that board in the board description. But the more information that you're able to give Pinterest on your profile, on your boards, it helps them better understand what your Pins are about. And I do recommend having boards that are fairly specific. So don't just have a marketing board. Have Instagram marketing for whoever you serve, facebook marketing things that are broken down a little bit more. So you don't just have one huge board with all of your marketing topics. So it could be related to the boards. If Pinterest isn't clear on what the board is about, what the Pins are about, they might not be ranking very well. Another thing that you can do when you're on your desktop, if you have your Pin open, you can kind of scroll down and Pinterest has a section called more like this. So it's showing you more Pins that are on the same topic as your Pin. So you can see if your Pin is related to those Pins that Pinterest is suggesting, or if they're completely different, then Pinterest is definitely confused about what your Pin is about, if it's showing quote, related content that isn't actually related. So making sure that everything is very specific to whatever the content is about, both on the Pin design and then also the Pin title and description, that's really going to help Pinterest better understand what to rank your pins for.

Britney Gardner [00:20:59]: Oh, that's a good point. I've never actually seen that. I probably don't ever edit Pins once I see them, so I don't have any reason to scroll down. Right? No, I never thought about that. The more like this should really be more exactly or very closely, I guess, related to this. That makes sense. Julia, this has been fantastic. Thank you. I feel like there's going to be more questions after this, so if people have those, where can they come and find you and perhaps get some more guidance there?

Julia Bocchese [00:21:26]: Yeah. So I'm on Instagram, probably mostly with social media at Julia Renee Consulting. My email is also Julia@juliareneconsulting.com, my website is juliareneconsulting.com. And I do have a lot more blog posts both on Pinterest SEO, but also more on the basics of Pinterest. So if you're just getting started and need help with the more basic things before you get technical with SEO, I do have a lot of resources there. Definitely. Email me if you have any questions or need more ideas on where to find keywords or things like that.

Britney Gardner [00:21:58]: Thank you so much.

Julia Bocchese [00:21:59]: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.